Why I don’t believe
The reason I don’t believe in any god or gods is simple, there is no reason to believe in any god or gods. There is no reason to use a god as an explanation for anything and there is reason to doubt the existence of any god or gods.
All currently available evidence tells us that all thing happen through natural processes. Every thing we have figured out, from lightening to geology, from evolution to the inner workings of the human body has not only been explained by natural processes but those explanations have been tested and verified. But that of course doesn’t mean that what we have yet to explain (or have been explained but the explanations have yet to be verified) has natural causes behind them but to suggest that what we have yet to explain has a super natural cause is not only a cop out (explaining the unexplained with the unexplainable) but a logical fallacy (argumentum ad ignorantiam (Argument from ignorance)) as well.
1. The fabric of time and space itself is eternal (its always existed) and that some very rare (say on average it happens every 10 to the 120 power years (that’s a 1 and a 120 0′s behind it (to put that in perspective the universe is only about 13,500,000,000 years old))) phenomenon happened and science has yet to discover and verify the phenomenon or possibility of it.
2. There could be a multiverse with many if not infinite universes and our universe could have been born out of another universe through a natural process.
3. This is sort of a combination of 1 and 2. It comes out of M-theory. Two branes (as in membranes (the fabric our universe)) collided resulting in the big bang.
of course the first two are unverifiable since I made them up off the top of my head and the third is very far from verified but they are a good example that you do not need a god or gods to explain the oriien of the universe or anything else.
And of course there are problems with the god idea. Where dose the god or gods come from? Saying that a god or gods did it just pushed the problem up another level (as with any explanation for the oriien of anything, you just end up asking “where did that come from”) a popular answer is “God has always existed” well I can just take that idea and apply it to space times (as I did above).
Another problem is what the definition of a god is. The simplest definition is as the creator or creators of the universe. On the other end of the spectrum is a god is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent bing. While a polytheists definition of a god would nether involves any omnis or creating the universe. Many define god as the Jewish, Christian and or Muslim god. Further confusing the definition of god are modern new age spiritualist religions, make it up as you go along religions (Wika, neo-paganism) and pseudoreligions that are popping up.
God as simply the creator is a very broad and week definition, by that definition an animal that created the universe by accident would be considered God (in another universe where the physics is such that an animal could create a universe by accident)
An omni god (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent) definition has the omnipotence paradox (could an omnipotence bing create a rock too heavy for it to lift? ether answer takes away its omnipotence) it also has the freewill vs omniscience paradox and omnibenevolents leads to the problem of evil.
But with out the creator and omni aspects the definition of a god is basically a powerful supernal bing. A ghost or demon if powerful enough could be considered a god.
By defining a god as the Christian, Jewish and or Muslim god you then bring all the problems that those/that god have (and it/they have many)
of course none this disproves the existence of a god or gods. But if a god exists, based on all available information it would be a deistic god (A god that creates the universe than steps aside and doesn’t interfere in it or a god that create the universe and hide all evidence of its existence and plants evidence that it all happened by natural processes) but there are logical problems with Deism. First is motivation. Why would god create the universe? Any reason I can think of diminishes God to an alien in another universe. The best one I can think of is God as a scientist and the universe is the result of an experiment or is an experiment being done by God. Though that god would fit the creator definition, that’s not much of a god and I wouldn’t call it a god. And if god is an alien scientist in another universe than why is it needed to create the universe? Why can’t it happen by some natural process within that universe? And Deism still has the problem of “what created God?”
of course some of you are thinking “But you haven’t disproven God and you’ve admitted it.” of course, it very hard to prove a negative and allot of times you can’t but that doesn’t mean you should be agnostic about it. I can’t disprove fairies, dragons, leprechauns, ghosts. alien abduction, and many other things but agnostic about them. I can’t disprove the existence of a god or gods but that doesn’t mean I should be an agnostic.
“I can’t disprove fairies, dragons, leprechauns, ghosts. alien abduction, and many other things but agnostic about them. I can’t disprove the existence of a god or gods but that doesn’t mean I should be an agnostic.”
So does that mean that you have FAITH in the fact that there is no god? This why atheism is a religion like any other.
No, I don’t have faith that there is no god or gods, I simply do not believe in any god or gods. An atheist is some one who lacks a belief in a god or gods. (see What is an Atheist)
Er. Wrong. Atheists claim that it is possible to prove that no god exists, agnostics claim that one cannot disprove the existence of a god. No atheists believe in a god, agnostics can be believing or non-believing.
In order to prove the non-existence of a god you would ultimately have to observe the entire universe at one and the same time. As you can guess, that is not all that simple. That is the main reason why I am a non-believing agnostic.
As a side note, I find that atheists tend to be as hysterical about religion as religious people are. They make non-religion into their religion and follow it dogmatically. I do not believe at all, and religion as well as non-religion takes up 0% of my time.
Let me get this straight, your telling an atheist what an atheist is?
No, atheism is the lack of a belief in a God or gods, nothing more, nothing less, it is a myth that atheism is the belief that there is no God or gods. Don’t believe me? God out and ask atheists.
Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive and in fact are separate and overlapping philosophical issues .
I never claimed that “atheism is the belief that there is no God or gods”. Rather what I claimed was that the main difference between agnostics and atheists has to do with what certainty one can claim that there is “absolutely no god”. I cannot absolutely claim that God, Thor, Jupiter, Zeus or any other deity does not exist, just like I cannot claim absolutely that Donald Duck does not exist.
If I am to claim that no gods exists (or no cartoon characters for that matter) it is required that I am everywhere at the same time, which is ridiculous. Note the difference: to prove that cats exist I merely need to find a cat. To prove that cats don’t exist I have to seek out every corner of the universe to make sure there is no cat there. And since a cat could move around, I have to be in every single part of the universe at one time in order to be absolutely certain that there is no cat.
As one of my favorite philosophers, Bertrand Russell, puts it:
“As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one can prove that there is not a God.” (snipped from Wikipedia).
The point is I am an agnostic because I cannot prove that there is no god. I cannot prove that there are not checkered pigs with wings either. I don’t believe in be-winged porks that look like chess boards and I don’t believe in gods. The fact that I cannot prove their non-existence really doesn’t matter to me.
And as I said earlier the whole gods exist/gods don’t exist debate doesn’t really matter to me. It’s 2008, religion is irrelevant.
Atheism has little to nothing to with disproving the existence of a God or gods, it is simply the lack of belief in a God or gods.
Agnosticism is a separate philosophical issue that theism and atheism. Read this post on agnosticicm
You can disprove things. its hard but possible. If there is a lack of evidence for something when there should be than that disproves it. If Zeus or Thor or the Christan God exists than there would be evidence of it but there is none thus it doesn’t exist. Those gods are falsifiable. A deistic god on the other hand is not falsifiable.
[...] Religion — Lorenzo E. Danielsson @ 10:38 *Sigh*.. I ended up in a little discussion over here about atheism and agnosticism. Dealing with dogmatic people, whether Christian or atheists, is [...]
If atheism is the lack of belief in God, then you are not an atheist. (Romans 1:20) If you have eyes that can see and a brain that works, you know that creation must have a Creator as much as a watch must have a watchmaker or a building has a builder. You do not need faith to believe in a builder, but you do need faith if you want the builder to build something for you. You do not need faith to believe in the Creator, but you do need faith if you want him to save you.
1. I am an atheist, I do not believe (or lack a belief in) in any thing that fits any definition of the word “god”
2. Creation does not require a creator, snow flakes form on there own with out external help from a supernatural thing. The physics and chemistry allows for things to form, complex things like complex organic molecules.
But your going to come back and say “Where does the universe come from?” “Why are the laws of physics they way they are” I don’t know, I really don’t know but that in no way means some supernatural bing is needed, all it means is I don’t know. But there are some ideas out there. It could be that there something in physics that means they have to be they way they are or more likely there could be an innumerable or even infinite number of other universes with verying physics and our universe just happens to be one in which life as we know it (there could be other types of life out there in this universe or in others) could form and thrive.
Ass for what cause the universe, I have already made a post about that.
But what you don’t mean a vague creator bing, you mean the Christan God. Well there is no reason to believe in it, there is no evidence for it and evidence against it. The Christan God is not supported by the bible and the bible it self is inconsistent when it comes to the god(s) of the bible, it is even inconsistent when it comes to monotheism. The god(s) of the bible are also evil, vile, cruel, tyrannical monster. The bible it self is inconsistent and contradicts it self often and archaeological evidence has shown much of the major events in the bible to not have happened. The Christan God doesn’t work logically, its supposed to be omnipotent yet we have evil and non-Christens and omnipotents it self doesn’t work (can an omnipotent bing create a rock too heavy for it too lift? If not, than its not omnipotant, if so, than its not omnipotent (omnipotents paradox)), its supposed to be omniscient yet problem of evil again and existence of non Christan’s plus omniscients and free will are mutually exclusive (thus even God himself couldn’t have free will), and why would an omnipotent, omniscient creature give a damn about us little insignificant things. Everything that we have figured out has had natural causes with out super natural help.
One last thing. remember arguments that work for you (salvation arguments, hell arguments, faith arguments) will not work on those who believe different from you.You must understand what they (I) believe and what arguments will work.
I made a bunch of claims about the bible and didn’t back them up but I do make allot of posts about the bible, click here to se my bible category
Lone Wolf – “remember arguments that work for you (salvation arguments, hell arguments, faith arguments) will not work on those who believe different from you.You must understand what they (I) believe and what arguments will work.”
Just a quick response to that. I just use enough apologetics/arguments in the hope to keep you interested long enough to hear the good news of how you can be saved. I cannot save you. The truth is that creation proves a Creator and the conscience shows we break the Creator’s moral standards. The Bible is the only Holy book compatible with these facts that shows us how we can be saved.
1. Creation does not prove a creator, things can come about on there own and there are more plausible explanation than some supernatural bing did it and no reason to assume one did.
2. What morel standards? Morality very from person to person, culture to culture. even difference versions of Christianity disagree morality.
3. The bible isn’t even internally consistent.
1) See http://kids4truth.com/watchmaker/watch.html
2) Regardless of the differences in culture and denominations, morality is up to God and he laid out the 10 Commandments for us.
3) False
I’ve seen the arguments before and they are not compelling and most are fallacious. Things can and do happen on there own with out help of any super natural help.
So your changing you argument from God gave humans morality to morality is decided by God.
Question do you keep the Sabbath day holly?
The Ten Commandments are no source of morality nether is anything in the bible. Ads a critic of the bible I have shown numerous parts of the bible that can only be described as evil
It is internally inconsistent.
Bible Inconsistencies: Bible Contradictions?, BIBLICAL CONTRADICTIONS, SAB Contradictions in the Bible
Friggen Christiens like they brainwash u with their god shit and liek hook u up 2 there mind control and then ur like going around doin good works and shit far out they piss me off fags
what you think mate?
Im wit u on that one
I agree. Missionarys go to other places play on people problems and fears to get them to convert thus spreading a religion who’s holy book tells them to do horrible things.
That is a silly thing to say lone wolf.
No its not. Taking advantage of people in order to covert people is wrong. Taking advantage of peoples tiles of need, doubt and problems in order to convert them to your beliefs is wrong.
The bible does tell people to do horrible things.
Lone Wolf – helping people with their problems and allowing them to make their own decision is not taking advantage of them.
Helping people is one thing but taking advantage of peoples problems in order to convert them to your religion is not helping the, ts taking advantage of them.
Give me an example.
What? Example, theres no need for an example. Taking advantage of people problems in order to spread your religion is wrong plain and simple. You may not see it cause you are a Christan who probably believes in “saving people souls” but imaging a Muslim or a Hindu going out and doing the same thing Christan missionary’s do except spreading there religion instead of Christianity.
No, you didn’t understand what I meant. I agree with your immediately above statement. I just meant give me an example of Christians doing that so I can respond. It is like saying you saying “your grandma killing everyone is wrong” when my grandma has not done so. Yeah, your statement is true, but did that actually happen?
Like going to pore country’s with starving people and proselytising or going door to door and proselytising to people that are depressed or even have mental problems.
That is crazy to say it is wrong to try to share our faith with people just because they are hungry or sad. If you want to say you think it is wrong for Christians to ever share their faith, then go ahead. That is your opinion, but don’t try to say that the reason is that we should only share with people perfectly well off.
I did not say that. I said it is wrong to take advantage of people problems to convert them to your religion is wrong. And calling the starving hungry and depressed sad is taking real problems and downplaying them to the point that they are not problems, its like calling the Iraq war a little skirmish. Starvation and depression are serous problems.
I understand the difference. I merely meant it is wrong to prejudice who can and cannot take in someone ideas on beliefs just because they have a problem.
Your not reading what I’m saying. I’m saying it is wrong to take advantage of peoples problem to spread there beliefs and thats what missionary’s do.
Prove it.
Read the story’s of those who have been converted.
Plus, those people are the only people that change there beliefs, most people it takes months to years to change there beliefs
Google Fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fallacy
It is in no way a fallacy. Taking advantage of peoples problems to spread your religion is wrong and that is what missionary’s do.
I said “prove it.”
You said “read the stories of those who have been converted.”
Your statement is an example of the google fallacy. You need to fix this for a better argument.
All of your explanations for creation still don’t fit. Especially with a “multi-verse” where our universe came from. That universe would require a similar universe to create it and so forth. You get into an infinite regress very fast there. Even most atheists and scientific minds will agree that there has to be something that has always existed and was never created or nothing would exist anywhere. An all-powerful being such as God is the best possible explanation. Since God would exist outside of time and space on levels we cannot fathom it becomes a concept impossible to fully understand. The only thing that could exist without being created is God.
Justin: So telling people to look things up is a fallacy? You know whats disturbing about your reply? That you never said “thats wrong, you don’t take advantage of people in those situations for any reason” and then give some defence of missionary’s by saying “they do take advantage of people in those situations”
Adam: No Most atheists and scientists do not believe in some eternal thing.
There is nothing wrong with an infinite regress.
No it would not require two smaller universes, when talking about a multiverse your talking about an innumerable or even infinite number of universes that can have widely varying laws of physics and in a combining of universes two different sets of physics would be merging. Your argument only works (acutely it doesn’t cause of what I already stated) if two universes merge to become one but thats 1 possibility, a universe could be created by another and grow off it.
And your God is the least likely possibility, a creator bing (what ever it may be) is possible but the most possible creator bing is simply an alien scientists doing an experiment but it is more likely that our universe came out of anther universe or the universe it self just has always existed and the big bang is some natural thing which we don’t know the cause yet.
Define “out side of time” cause Christens use that argument allot with out saying what it means. Do you mean God exists out side our universe in some higher plain of reality? If so a better description would be “out side of our universe” But does time exist in some shape or form where God exists? If no that the argument fails cause time in some form is needed for anything to happen. Turn off time and nothing would move, everything would be still even light. Or do you mean God can go back or forward in time?
Actually, if you look above, at one point I said “I agree with your immediately above statement.” Your immediately above statement was “Taking advantage of people problems in order to spread your religion is wrong plain and simple.” So you see, I did say it was wrong.
Here is the problem though. You are saying that missionaries are doing that and I asked for proof. Instead of giving me proof that missionaries do that, you commit the google fallacy by saying basically for me to look it up myself. How then do I know that you ever had any evidence that is has happened? So what you should do is give me the evidence so I can adequately respond.
I apologise for taking so long to reply. Things have been going on, life, relatives, shit.
I’ll make an actual reply as soon as I can.
No problem. I understand.
I apologise for my long absence.
First people in such situations are really the only ones willing to quickly change there beliefs. But logic alone doesn’t prove anything but they do send missionary’s to impoverished country’s will staving people as well as missionary’s go door to door and if you go door to door you will as well it is a typical recruitment strategy for religions and cults.
Sorry, but what are you saying? Your thoughts seem jumbled?
My point is they do take advantage of people who are having problems to convert them to there religion. Missionary’s go to impoverished country’s and country’s with starving people to proselytise, they go door to door proselytising.
I am glad that missionaries are not prejudice. They do not just witness to the wealthy and hope to get their tithe to the church. We witness to people of every culture, race, and social class. Missionaries also try to help feed the hungry. Do not be prejudice and say Christian beliefs are only for the well fed.
God does exist there are no if’s and’s or but’s about it. An atheist and agnostic and any other non-believer do not want a ‘god’ to exist because they do not believe they should feel beholdened to someone for their very existence. They do not want to change their lifestyle, their patterns, their thought processes, their ideology, etc. They live ‘independently’ from the source of life, believing that they can save theirselves, heal theirselves, strengthen theirselves. They yell and curse at an invisible ‘god’ when in reality, the thought of God terrifies most atheists and agnostics. For you see, if there is a God, then they know that what they are doing (living in their sin) cannot be pleasing. And so, it is simpler (in their mindset) that there is no one who they will ever have to give an account to. They believe that their body is all that is visible and once the body is dead, then there is nothing left. No after life, no heaven, no hell, no condemnation. It is easier for them to ignore the fact of a judgment than to face it head on. They and every single person upon this earth is appointed once to die and then to be judged. Those that are in Christ Jesus are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. Those that reject Jesus as the Word made flesh, Emmanual (God with us), will be judged and condemned to an everlasting fire. So of course, an atheist do not want to hear that! An atheist will ask-But if God is so loving (as you Christians say) than how can He send me to Hell? I will tell you. God in His everlasting love and mercy, is a righteous and a perfect judge. If you were to stand before a judge in court with a stack of all the wrongs that you have ever committed in your lifetime (lying, stealing, etc). the judge might be compassionate towards you, but you would still have to suffer the consequences of your crimes and he would still have to sentence you, no matter his compassion. God is the ultimate judge. He has given you the works of His world to know Him, your inner conscious that pricks you when you do something wrong, they work together to form the logical reasoning that there is a God. If there is no God, why then when you do something wrong does your conscious prick you? God said in His Book, He wrote His laws upon our hearts. God would judge you because you denied His one and only Son who came to redeem us to Himself. Our crimes against God separated us from Him and therefore He sent His Son, the only perfect one to ever walk this earth, to place us in ‘harmony’ with the Father. You will be judged if you are not in Christ, for those that are in Christ, ‘there is now no condemnation for those that are in Christ.’ Listen to your spirit (yes, you do have one). God declared in His word that the gospel would seem like foolishness to the wise. I’ll declare His works beginning with His creation, His prophets, His Son and His love for you, the ‘atheist’
How do we know the Bible is the ‘true’ word of God? We can know without a shadow of doubt by prophecy written in the Bible. The Bible was written over hundreds of years by different men through the power of the Holy Spirit (or the Spirit of God). Many of these writers were also prophets. These included the Jewish King David (who wrote the best known book of the Bible, Psalms), Isaiah, Moses. All of the above-mentioned men were Hebrews. David knew that His Redeemer would come, Isaiah in Isaiah 53 described Jesus’ life and ministry explicitly hundreds of years before the New Testament was written, “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”
You see these Hebrew men knew that their needed to be someone to restore our relationship with the living God, our sins had torn us away from Him. They declared it and along came, the Word (the Old & New Testament writings) made flesh (Jesus). He lived, His birth was recorded in secular and biblical records and His trial, beating and crucifiction was also recorded in secular and biblical records, along with the darkening of the earth that was recorded in secular and biblical records.
Now Jesus could be a liar, crazy, just a teacher, or Emmanual (God with us). If He was a liar, and then His disciples knew He was a liar, than why were they willing to die and be crucified for His sake. You see people will die for the truth, even if its actually false, but people will not die for a lie, what they know to be false. If Jesus was crazy, then how could he have been in His right mind to heal so many of their diseases, crazy men don’t go around healing people. If Jesus was just a teacher than He made Himself out to be a liar by saying, “I am the Way, the truth and the light” and “if you have seen Me you have seen the Father” “baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost”. So Jesu made the claim He was more than just a teacher, He was the light of the world, the truth of the world, one with the Father, and worthy to have people also baptized in His name as in the Father’s name. That could only leave one possible conclusion. Jesus was telling the truth, and is the Son of God, and if the Son of God, then a “God” exist to have sent Him to earth to be our Savior.
How is Jesus different from other prophets, teachers, buddha, allah, mohammed, etc? Jesus healed people, written in both secular and biblical history. Jesus had the power to forgive people of their sins, “…but that you might know the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sin” Luke 5. Jesus rose from the dead. Argument started. Atheist, “you can’t prove that.” Me, yes I can. There were guards stationed at his tomb, three days later the rock to his tomb lay to the side, His body was gone. They were told by the pharisees to say ‘tell the romans that the disciples took His body while you slept’. What? If they were sleeping how did they know who took the body? Matthew 28. Well, maybe Jesus was only faking dead, and he only looked dead, but he really survived His crucifiction. Cough, excuse me. How many peopel you know survived a crucificiton. Remember before this He was whipped, beatened, etc. He was hung on a wooden cross with His hands and feet pierced and to top that off, a Roman soldier pierced Him with a spear! Okay, and then lets say He hadn’t died, but was merely unconscious. Jesus was wrapped mummified, how did He unravel Himself and move the tomb on the 3rd day which He prophesized that He would rise from the dead on the 3rd day? Did His disciples get Him out of there? If they did then once again a lie would have been revealed to them. Jesus was to resurrect Himself, not have His disciples do it. If it was the disciples who took His body, whether dead or alive, then they would have identified that Jesus was a liar because He did not resurrect Himself and therefore they would have been following a liar. Would you die for a liar. 11 of the 12 disciples all were crucified for their faith, not one recanted their belief, that Jesus is the Son of God, and resurected from the dead. I know I wouldn’t die for a liar, would you?
ok, we know Jesus exist, then therefore God exist, but where do I, the atheist fit in? I’m not that bad of a person, I work in a charity, am faithful to my girlfriend, treat people kindly. Well, mr. athesit, God says your works of righteousness are like filthy rags to Him. Isaiah 64:6. You see, how many good things can you do that will make all the bad things you do not matter? 10 to 1. 100 to 30. What is the ratio that can get you firmly into heaven?(this is the muslims belief). Good works = salvation. WRONG. This is how man try to ’save’ himself through what he feels are acts of righteousness, giving money to charity, adopting a gazillion kids, loving animals, being kind to the elderly. That would therefore make Jesus life and death a complete waste of time, air, and heartache. Jesus came to bring salvation, not that you might ‘create’ your own salvation. Jesus is the way, the truth, the light, and He says, “come to Me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest’. Matthew 11:28. Wow, what a promise! Mohammed can’t say such a powerful statement and back it up. So why should you care that Jesus wishes to give you rest? Because He understands everything about you, “for we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in everyway, just as we are-yet was without sin” Hebrews 4:14. You see, He understands your doubts/disbelief about God, your wanting to do things your way, there is nothing hidden from Him, that you could try to hide, for He knows your thoughts and actions, “for the word of God is living and active…it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” Heb. 4:12. Everything that you have ever done, whether good or bad, God knows about every single deed, sin, evil thought, lustful look, hatred, love, hope, etc, “there is nothing hidden which will not be revealed” Mark 4:22. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus alone, who He is (the perfect Son of God), what He did (died on the Cross to be the last and ultimate sacrifice) why He did it (to restore our relationship to the Father and the forgiveness of sins) and His reasoning (for God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life). So instead of running (that’s all you’re doing) well, guess what, did you know that God runs to you?!
Now that’s love, stick around to hear the truth that will set you free, for whomever the Son sets free is truly free indeed
have you heard the phrase, ‘prodigal son’? Luke 15:11. Jesus uses it as a parable to explain God’s joy when a son (man) returns to the father (God). You see this son was a child of a great man but asked his father for his inheritance and of course blew it on partying and loose women. we were all young and stupid once. hungry, broke and thinking that the pig’s food looked mighty tasty, the prodigal son cleared his head enough to remember how good he had it back at home and he’d ask his father forgiveness and to be made into a hired servant since he did such great wrong. well, as he made his way home practicing his speech as to how sorry he was, his father saw him and guess what his father did? HE RAN TO HIS SON! that’s right, the father was the one doing the running not the sinful son. He ran, hugging and kissing him, and then called for a great feast. You see, dear atheist, that is what God has in store for you, there is great celebration in Heaven when someone returns to the Lord, that is how much God cares for you! He runs to you, He loves you! You! He made you in His image. He wants to have a relationship with you, he doesn’t want to condemn and reject you, you do that on your own out of your own selfish pride. All God wants is a humble and contrite heart. You can’t live this life on your own no matter how hard you try, and it wasn’t meant for you to live it out on your own. He created you to be loved by Him and for Him to be loved by you. its a two way street, sonny. “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me.”
I’m not saying that some missionary’s don’t help, some do, some don’t. But what I’m saying is proselytising to people who are having probloms that makes them suseptable to minipulation is minipulation, is taking advantage of them and is wrong.
step: I’ll approve you comment once I edit you 6 replays together into 1 and I’ll respond later
Lone Wolf: Since true Christians believe what they believe, there would be no benefit to “manipulation” when it comes to salvation. We believe they must be genuine.
It is manipulation when they proselytise to people susceptible to manipulation, they may not call it manipulation but thats what it is.
never use the “true Christan” argument cause though you may not think “x” Christan is not a true Christan but he/she may believe that he/she is a true Christan and your not. There is no such thing as a true Christan cause every Christan things they are true Christens.
Lone Wolf, if you want to use the argument that Christians are being manipulative without knowing it, then I can understand that argument, but it is nothing new. That just brings it back to the question of “is Christianity true or not”. I was simply arguing against what I perceived as an actually fresh argument: that Christians are purposefully manipulative. That has been debunked here by saying there would be no point of that. Time for the old argument of Christianity not being true.
Christianity being true has little to no relevance to manipulation of vulnerable people. I never said the where intentionally being manipulative, some are, most aren’t. But that doesn’t make it right, its still wrong.
As fr Christianity being true. Starting with the basics, theres no need for a god as an explanation for anything, Now the bible; the first 2 books are not supported by the evidence in fact the available evidence says that there wrong along with other parts of the bible. Jesus; he didn’t fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah, theres no evidence of his existence and the Jesus story matches several other mythological story’s which all but disproves the Jesus of the bible (it doesn’t disprove a historical Jesus, a historical Jesus still could have existed but his story was exaggerated and altered) and the bible isn’t even internally consistent.
My posts on the bible
Skeptics Annotated Bible
Bible Inconsistencies
Wikipedia – Jesus myth hypothesis
You said “Christianity being true has little to no relevance to manipulation of vulnerable people. I never said the where intentionally being manipulative, some are, most aren’t. But that doesn’t make it right, its still wrong.”
It is wrong to be manipulative. I agree. I just disagree with what you say is manipulative, and I would argue those who are Christians that became such after the help from a missionary and hearing the gospel would be offended by your assertion.
You said “As fr Christianity being true. Starting with the basics, theres no need for a god as an explanation for anything,”
Well, there must be a Creator of the creation. You have a logical problem as well as an infinite regress problem. Was the universe eternally existent? If not, how did time begin? Where did matter come from?
The rest of what you said is baloney. Respected secular scholars wouldn’t likely go as far as you did. You have some very biased research.
It is manipulation. Proselytising to vulnerable people is manipulation. Think about it this way, say you or one of your friend or relative are in a situation that makes them vulnerable to manipulation and a Muslim (or a Hindu or Buddhist or atheist) starts proselytising there beliefs to them.
Everything i said is true, there is no evidence that the events in Geneses and Exodus happened and evidence that they didn’t. Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah, theres no evidence that Jesus existed and the Jesus story has many major similarity’s to other mythology’s and the bible isn’t internally consistent.
There is no need for a creator and I already addressed probable origins of the universe. Infinite regression is not a problem, theres nothing wrong with it.
Check out the links I posted, SAB points out all the violence, injustice, inconsistency’s (and so on) in the King James Version of the bible, the Quran and the Book of Mormon, the Bible Inconsistencies page points out all of the biblical inconsistency’s and the Jesus myth hypothesis Wikipedia page doesn’t take a side it just talks about the hypothesis.
And read this last link that I for got to put in.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah
If a Muslim or Buddhist gets one of my friends or family to convert to their religion, it would not particularly bother me. A Christian is a Christian forever. If they were converted, it makes is more obvious that they need the gospel.
Please do not put your soul in the hands of wikipedia. You have creation around you and your conscience. Flee to the Savior.
You missed the point. You see proselytising as good cause you believe in “saving souls” what I was trying to get you to do is think of proselytising from the perspective of people with different beliefs proselytising those beliefs, I was trying to get you to think about the ethics of proselytising it self not the ethics of Christan proselytising.
Christens or not Christens for life, many Christens convert or deconvert and it is the bible that has caused conversions (specifically the violence and contradictions in the bible).
I do not put my soul (which I don’t believe in) in the hands of Wikipedia, I was trying to get you to read up on the subjects. The Jesus Myth Wikipedia article only talks about the hypothesis, what people on both sides say about it, it doesn’t say ether side is right or wrong and the Wikipedia article on the Jewish Messiah talks about the Jewish beliefs about the Messiah and what they believe he will do (which Jesus didn’t fulfill)
The Earth and the universe are not evidence for the existence of any god let alone yours, and my conscience isn’t evidence ether.
step: Sorry for not reapplying to your reply. I forgot. Sorry.
I will reapply to your reply as soon as I can.
You should get The Case for Atheism DVD at http://www.livingwaters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=602
Can you afford it?
1. Why would you think I can’t afford it?
2. I’ve herd all the arguments for all ready. I’ve been in debates with theists many times. There is no evidence that any god exists and the bible well just read what I’ve already said about the bible.
Justin (or any other theist): please check out this post where I ask why are theists so certain that there god is the creator of the universe..
Lone Wolf, I as just going to offer to buy it for you if you could not afford it. I hope you will lay down your presuppositions.
As Ive said this is not the first debate I’ve been in with a theist, I’ve been in many. I’ve read the arguments for the existence of God and they don’t logical work. At worst there fallacious and at best there not the best explanation. I’ve herd them all and none of them work unless your looking for a reason to believe in God and not the truth.
You said “I’ve read the arguments for the existence of God and they don’t logical work.” Your very sentence testifies that God must exist if you claim to believe in logic. See http://www.proofthatGodexists.org
That sites arguments are on the low end (fallacious) of the spectrum. First of all it leads you to the conclusion it wants not by logic or evidence but by a series of questions that are false dilemmas and straw men. The questions it asks do not necessarily have a yes or no answer. It leads you down these false dilemmas all to say that absolute laws of mathematics, morality, science and logic come from a god (and then presume that its there God) with out giving any evidence that they do (am I the only person who has herd of emergence) and then says
which is not true and then false states
and it keeps going with more crap.
This is a prime example of people searching for evidence to support there beliefs not whether there beliefs are true or not. This may work for you but when critically examined the arguments just fall apart.
If you think there needs to be a god for there to be logic. If you have 1 and add another you get 2. Not even an omnipotent omniscient bing could change that. Thats a rule that even your god would have to obey. Think about that for a moment.
Nope, you can only know truth because of God.
Best wishes as you search for truth.
Saying “Only through God you can get ‘X’” is false. No deity is needed for anything. And I never said you can know truth. Now there are things that you can say with a level of certainty are true but to literately know truth I doubt anything could. I don’t presume to know the truth I do my best to base my beliefs on evidence
Are you absolutely certain there is no absolute knowable truth?
I did not say that. I didn’t say whether there is an absolute truth or not.
In the literal sense of the words “know” and “truth” we only vary rarely know the absolute truth or whether there is one or not. Yet there are things we can say with a level of certainty “we know this to be true” but we can’t literately know that anything is absolutely true.
Can we know that something is absolutely true? Yes. However can you know that we know it? Maybe something like 1+1 or 185÷8 but in other areas. Think about it this way: How do know that this universe is not just an MMORPG made by highly advanced aliens and you and I are NPC’s? How can you know its not especially when you consider you could be programed to not believe it? You can look at it logical and it just ends up like Russell’s Teapot but you can not know the universe isn’t an MMORPG.
When talking about absolutes you start to get into a gray fuzzy area. Theres no way 1+1 can = 3 or 185÷8 can = 75. But can “X” be absolutely morally wrong? If you base morality on needless suffering and death (anything that causes needless suffering and death is morally wrong) and if “X” causes nothing but needless suffering and or death than yes it is absolutely wrong but if you base your morality on an authority then right and wrong are at the whim of that authority and thus can never be absolute. And can you absolutely know that a man lived 2000 years ago or not? No, you can’t.
When is comes to absolutes, sometimes there can be an absolute, others it depends on perspective but most of the time no or you can not know it, its too gray and fuzzy.
It takes a lot of creative wording to try to suppress the obvious fact of Creation proving there is a Creator.
And now you go back to that.
“Things exist this means something must have created them” Well what created the creator?” “It always existed” “So existence does not need a creator sense as demonstrated by your ‘creator’ and even if they did the eternal argument can be appalled to other things such as time space it self or a multiverse”
I wander how many time people have had that conversation.
You’ve already used that argument and you ignore the fact that I addressed it in the post itself. I give non-god explanations for the existence of the universe and the stuff in it.
I do not ignore the fact that you feel you have adequately addressed that. However, you are simply in error. Creation proves the Creator. It is the great cosmic “duh” of our time.
How? How does creation prove theres a creator?
Dose a tree prove there was some one there to shape it? Does a snow flake have to be made by the hand of an intelligent bing? Do crystals need some supernatural bing for the molecules to line up and form a crystal? No, there all happen on there own. Simple systems can and do form complex system (emergence). All you need is something there and the laws of physics.
The question is where did the matter and energy in our universe come from and what determined the laws of physics which govern these systems and though we do not have a proven explanation for these there are explanations that do not involve any god of any definition of the word “god” and in fact a creator would only add more questions and problems.
The simplest answer is that the universe it self has always existed and the laws of physics for some unknown reason can not be different, they have to be what they are and the big bang was a huge quantum fluctuation. The most logical explanation is the this universe is part of a multiverse and this universe cam out of another universe and it just happens to have laws of physics that allow life to form.
By adding a god in to it you just add more problems to it. “Where did that god come from” “How did it create the universe” “Why did it create the universe.”
By saying Creation needs a creator your saying that your God requires a creator, Gods creator requires a creator and that requires a creator and so on and on and on. It ends in an infinite regress (which you don’t like) But of course your probably going to say “God always existed” but that contradicts your previous statement that “creation requires a creator. By saying that God could have always existed your saying that something can just exist with out a creator cause it always has existed and from that other things can come into existence.
By applying this “it always existed” argument to space time its self or a multiverse, God become unnecessary.
For you, which came first? The belief in God or the evidence for the existence of God? Did you start with the conclusion that God exists and then looked for evidence for it or did you start with the question, looked at the evidence objectively and then came to the conclusion that a God exists?
I don’t ask out of curiosity, I ask to get you to think about it. If you start with the conclusion and only look for things that support it you could believe anything no madder ridiculous. You could believe the sun revolves around the earth, that the earth is flat, that people of certain colors are inferior, that the world is secretly controlled by by the Free Masons and they are led by a cabal of 12 Jewish bankers (people actually believe that crap by the way, even the part about the earth being flat) but if you start by critically and objectively examining the best available evidence then basing your opinion on that evidence and with a willingness to change your mind if new evidence comes out that contradicts and is better than the previous evidence and is of sufficient quantity. That gets you closer to the truth.
Note: I do not know how this got so long. I did;t intend to make it so long but it sort of took on a life if its own and grew and grew and grew.
To one who examines the evidence, there can be no doubt that God exists. Every building has a builder. Everything made has a maker. The fact of the existence of the Creator is axiomatic (self-evident). That’s why the Bible says, “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1). The professing atheist denies the common sense given to him by God, and defends his belief by thinking that the question “Who made God?” can’t be answered. This, he thinks, gives him license to deny the existence of God.
The question of who made God can be answered by simply looking at space and asking, “Does space have an end?” Obviously, it doesn’t. If there is a brick wall with “The End” written on it, the question arises, “What is behind the brick wall?” Strain the mind though it may, we have to believe (have faith) that space has no beginning and no end. The same applies with God. He has no beginning and no end. He is eternal.
The Bible also informs us that time is a dimension that God created, into which man was subjected. It even tells us that one day time will no longer exist. That will be called “eternity.” God Himself dwells outside of the dimension He created (2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2). He dwells in eternity and is not subject to time. God spoke history before it came into being. He can move through time as a man flips through a history book.
Because we live in the dimension of time, logic and reason demand that everything must have a beginning and an end. We can understand the concept of God’s eternal nature the same way we understand the concept of space having no beginning and end—by faith. We simply have to believe they are so, even though such thoughts put a strain on our distinctly insufficient cerebrums.
You made two very big mistake in that reply. 1. Saying “the bible says ‘this’” and 2. Saying that you must take things by faith.
The bible is mythology. Its not a history book, a morel guide, a guide to live by, the word of God or the truth. The fact that the bible says “atheist are fools” is the 50th thing wrong with it.
I don’t take anything by faith, I have no faith. I base my beliefs on evidence, when there is none I don’t make a conclusion about it and if its not falsifiable (in the realm of philosophy only) my conclusion (if I make one) is based on logic a reason. Faith is ignorants, faith is stupidity. Never take anything by faith.
You use the watchmaker argument (you use a building but its the same argument) the problem is we are not watches, we are not buildings and nether is the universe. Your comparing apple and and trans-dimensional non-corporal bing’s from Star Trek. The argument that “if something exists, something had to make it” is a bad argument. It ignore well known examples of self organization, it ignores how multi-cellular life starts out as a single cell that multiplies and differentiates to form countless different creatures from grass to people all with out the help of some super natural bing, it ignore how the matter and the laws of physic are enough to create complex systems.
The question is then “where does the universe it self and the stuff in it comes from” and “why are the laws of physics what they are” but there are non-god answers to those.
How does logic and reason demand that all things have a beginning and an end?
If everything has a beginning and an end then God has a beginning and an end, if God doesn’t have a beginning and an end then everything doesn’t have to have a beginning and an end. (Why do I get a feeling of déjà vu?) You can’t say “everything is ‘X’” then say “‘Y’ is not ‘X’” cause they are contradictory statements, if “Y” isn’t “X” then not everything is “X” and it opens up the possibility that other things are not “X”.
Bernard- OK. I am not trying to pick on or dumb down anyone who posts a message here. I applaud any effort made to get down to the bottom of the matter. It shows a willingness in my mind to find the truth. I believe thats a sign of intelligence. Keep in mind that Faith is the important part of Christianity. Many things have been said that I do not believe were paid attention to.
Justin on May 7, It takes a lot of creative wording to try to suppress the obvious fact of Creation proving there is a Creator.
Bernard- People will always do or say whatever they can to deny any evidence or fact or lack thereof to prove themselves to themselves or anyone on their side of an argument that they hold the answers or that no one has answers so as not to have to answer to anyone. Keep this in mind as you read (every further statement.)
As to the idea of can GOD create a rock he cannot lift, is a question I ask most every priest I run into so that I might understand his understanding of GOD. THE answer is…… are you ready for it? You can not put your humanistic traits on GOD. GOD made you in his image not the other way around. ( So the story goes. And thats the point of the question, to know if they know and understand it. Because that is the story of Christ. He is the ALMIGHTY. You dont read a book and then rewrite some parts and claim it as your own.) You would be surprised as to how many do not have the answer to that rock question. Or you may not! I no longer am.
Just because one does something in the name of……. does not mean that that person represents all. I say that now to Lone Wolf because he is right, it is a shame what is done in the name of……..And I think that was his point but it brought on many an intersting rants.
But in the ongoing talk as to the creation and creator.
Lone Wolf- The bible is mythology
Bernard- Intersting Statement. I then say to you Lone wolf Go and tell it on the mountain to every scientist and archeoligist who now have in the last 50 years found cities on this planet that only exist in the bible. Some of these cities they have found have no record whatsoever in any transcript or scroll or what have you in anyplace except the bible. Not to poke fun at you Lone wolf, but that makes me wonder.
Lone wolf -on May 9, 2008- I don’t take anything by faith, I have no faith. I base my beliefs on evidence.
Bernard- You dont think it is possible, somewhere in the realm of possibility that you have been lied to. That is to say that evidence has been changed alterd or modified to create different beliefs.
Bernard- I see no eveidence to dispute the claims of or anyone coming forward with some proof that the cities found are in some text elsewhere. But I will keep an eye out for it.
If GOD were proven to be real would you have faith then? I think the overall point is that and this is coming from a believer, so understand my humillity and respect for you and others here and elsewhere, that he Jesus already came here once. What would be the point of coming here everyday. Its in my mind our fellow brothers and sisters who misslead us on a day to day basis. For example Government in the name of……. show me a good politician. Please I beg of you. Ive watched these damned debates and talks till I truely cant take it anymore. It seems they lie even about the small stuff so much, calling each other flip flopers and so on. Ive personaly wittnessed their lies. I understand you dont want an enemy you are at war with to know what you are doing, but aside from military actions everyone of them flip flop on every subject.
Back to a point I wanted to make. You cant put your traits on GOD. GOD created the universe. So the story goes. If you talk about the story know the story. Its simple really GOD is outside of our tiny little box. Thank you all for reading thus far. One more thing.
In my upbringing GOD has been a part of my life and many of times I have Fallen. But in my beliefs he’s always been there even when I doubt him. And boy have I searched and doubted. Faith brings me back to him and he welcomes me as he always has and for that I am thankfull and gladly bow down to him. Because in this world of truths and lies I would rather follow a fairy tale than some asshole who says his shit dont stink. Take care everyone.
After reading all the defensive crap vomited by the fundamentalist narrow minded literalist I can anly say one thing….If I have to spend eternity with a bunch of assholes like you folks..I would sonner rot in hell…with open minded people who can think for themselves…not a bunch of literalists who thing they know something I don’t…(and alot of other people like myself)…
all you closed minded idiots who think you know the way….a question…why is christianity dying….because you made it an embarassment to your god….think about it…do you really think god wants all you simple minded idiots to crowd around his throne for an eternity???…i for one wouldn’t want to be there…and if you happen to be right…then your god is an idiot too….just like you fundamentalists…the world stinks right now because of fundamentalism…stupid simple minded people running or thinking they run the world…(ie: Bush, Bin Laden…etc.)…bring on armagedon…as far as i’m concerned I would gladly hunt down all you loser fundamentalists and kill you all…thus ending the world as you know it and bringing on a world of peace run by open minded realists…fuck off christians…muslims…and jews…your god is an asshole…just like your faith makes you…
One last question….what the hells wrong with dying and then absolutely nothing after that….no consciousness..no god…no you….just silence…perpetual silence…and rest from all this idiotic god lovin bullshit…
Very good posting, though it could stand a little proofreading. Nott liek Im won two takl.
First, I am an atheist and tue to meaning I simply do not believe in a monolythic deity.
That said, the existance of god has all to do with a human desire to understand. Since we are really, as humans, only recently evolved on the earth and then only a few thousand years ago were only begining to record our understandings we are still clinging to mythical writings of recent history.
Some of us see these biblical accounts no different than those of Greek Mythology, its really just moving from multiple gods to one god over time. History tells us that in the way that Constentine and then the Byzintines spread christianity throughout Europe. This happens all over Europe and Asia with Mohmad, but conversley is not carried into the far east africa or even the Amaricas until modern times where these cultures practiced all kinds and in some cases still do, all types of beliefs of their own human understanding.
For me, if there were a single creator why then has he left the largest population on the earth without him? Was it for the sole purpose that Europeans carry his message, seems unlikely. The entire far east, all of the subcontinent of Africa, more than half of Asia and all the Americas were left ignorant that the creator existed. Doesn’t seem likely at all.
The notion of a creator is simply a popular movement. It’s roots are in reality civil control efforts by the elders throughout time. Some teaching with fear to stay in line and follow god and others teaching salvation to stay obedient. But all of it is meant to keep the population from destroying each other, so that’s not a bad thing.
It’s only in the last couple of centuries or so that we now begin an understanding of our universe and in the time of human life on this earth that’s like yesterday. For anyone to believe in creationism today is understandable in those terms as we are still just children. As I said some have adopted philosophies of this new gereration of thought and have abandoned these mythical beliefs of the past and these are the atheists with the agnostics and others coming to terms with that philosophy as time and science open our minds.
Like anything, fundamentalists of any type will always be around waiting for the second coming or praying to a brick wall or facing toward Mecca a few times a day. As long as their fundamentalist ideas are their belief in thier god and peacful I’m all for it. When it becomes a danger to the rest of us it’s a problem.
I’m of a school of taxing organized religion as it’s time of getting a free ride has come to an end. In this chain there is mention of praying on the poor and problems of others. It doesn’t occur to the author that they themselves have been taught to do this, by example or however. Yes, you go to countries where people are destitute and convert them, then you get them to collect money which then goes to the organizers to distribute as they see fit. It’s the largest financial crminal scheme of all time with trillions of dollars going untaxed and unnoticed. And then maybe that is why there are those that are in power of these religious institutions that want and need to keep them going.
Concluding, I am positive about how all this religion started, history tells that story, I’m just not sure why it is sustaining kicking and screaming in light of discoveries we have made in recent history. So I’ll try to keep the more optimistic view that there is some good in man and it just takes some longer to understand reality than others.
Think of it as Santa Claus. When you were a kid, you belived in Santa. But when you got older and more mature, you lost the faith because lack of evidence and it simply sounds like a fairy-tale. Science, on the other hand actually has something to back it up. It’s hard to belive we were created by an animal, but evolvition seems to make more sence.
Where did the big bang come from? Pretty simple really. We exist in a universe of at least 9 dimensions. The singularity that existed before the big bang by us four dimensions. High, weight, length, and time. In this dimensions it the singularity was completely stable and fixed. Unfortunately, another dimension that could be to big or to small for us to precive. Imagine a singularity sized dimension in a ring shape existing at every point in space time, and any identical set of objects in our four dimensions having two different and opposite points on this pint sized ring dimension. Both objects would be at exactly the same point in height, length, width, and time and yet an entire universe of distance apart in the “donut” dimension that is to small to see having zero height, width, or length itself. Now, imagine we have two identical big bang singularities at the same points in our observable four dimensions. Yet in the fifth dimension these two points of energy are moving toward each other…. KAFUCKING BOOM! You have the big bang by purely physical means. Admittedly my name isn’t Hawking, so if you want a proof you’re going to need to wait about 20 years for the theory of everything to be completely and consulate someone with at least 50 IQ points on me.
See my explanation above. Ignoring the fact that who created the creator doesn’t solve any of the problem you’re claiming it does.